Kanopi Ep 5 | Building Tomorrow’s Insurer | Tetiana George’s Endeavor for ‘Instant Everything’ in Insurance

Tetiana George’s Endeavor for ‘Instant Everything’ in Insurance

With Nigel Fellowes-Freeman, CEO of Kanopi and Tetiana George, Co-Founder & CEO of Curium


Nigel:  Hi. My name is Nigel Fellowes-Freeman. I am the founder and CEO of Kanopi and we are a data-driven embedded insurance platform that helps insurers deliver embedded insurance to customers where and when they need it through these ultimately seamless experiences. Thank you for joining one of us here today. Thanks for joining us for episode five of Building Tomorrow’s Insurer. As we speak to Tetiana George, the co-founder of Curium, they are a no-code-SaaS platform that runs all things claims-related operations all the way from Lodgment, all the way through reporting and payment at a fraction of the cost of traditional providers. And I am sure that is music for everyone looking for, everyone is always worrying about the cost, so that’s a great thing to be basing a business around. And she is one of the unconventional creators within the insurance industry. Got these real core values of technical excellence as well as kind of building customer expectations of instant everything. I do remember a really nice phrase which was kind of maybe the Netflix of compliance, which I love. And we’ll dive a little bit further into that a little bit later in the conversation. But Tetiana, thanks for your time. It’s wonderful to have you here and I’m really looking forward to the conversation. 


Tetiana: Thanks, Nigel. It’s a great summary. 


Nigel: You can roll me in when you want to do any startup pitches. That is just fine. Maybe let’s start at the beginning before we can go into Curium. I thought it’d be nice to start a little bit on your history. Obviously, you’ve been in and around the industry for a while, so I’d love to hear about you and your history and how you got to where you are today. 


Tetiana: One thing that I’m not speaking about too much is I’m Ukrainian and I come from Ukraine. And while my country is in the news for obvious reasons, it’s an interesting history that led me to where I am today. I’m the first generation of independent of children born in independent Ukraine. And if you know anything about that, people went into like a free fall from the absolute totalitarian state into market economy. They jumped without a parachute. So, what that meant is when I was growing up, it was a complete Wild West. Insurance was not even on the cards. People lost all their money within one day because the state used to be the saving, pension, Social Security, medicine, and education. And suddenly it was all gone, and you were on your own. People started accumulating wealth and assets and figuring out their lives up until this point now. So, 30 years later, all their wealth is destroyed again. And Ukraine is one of these countries that we talk about the problem of uninsurance all the time. Massive, massive, massive uninsurance problem. So, if anything happens to you, like rain or not even a war, but like a minor event, you’re on your own. Your livelihood is completely thrown up in the air. And I find it always stressful. Life is very stressful when you have no plan B and in insurance term, when you cannot cut off the risk of a black swan or a long tail event. So, in a long story short, that led me into taking an interest in this interesting industry that I did not realize could do so much good. So I fell into it when I was back in Switzerland in 2007. I was working for an audit company that did audits on insurers. And then very quickly I realized I’m probably very bad at looking at the past. I’m much better looking at the future and trying to shape it. And so, I went to work for Boston Consulting Group and straight through into insurance practice. I have worked in more than 20 countries since then. All major insurers, or half of them, not all big names, international names, small names, all kinds of life, non-life, health, lines of business operations, everything. And then when I came to Australia seven years ago, six years ago, apologies. I actually started working on an insurer tag that was very fresh, the Blue Zebra. And I helped them build the entire operation around claims. And you went from zero to many million dollars in 18 months and from two to six products within three years. So that was quite a fast learner journey. How to scale and how to scale efficiently. 


Nigel:  That’s amazing. And then that kind of led you to that step from Blue Zebra to Curium. I’m really interested in that step. Obviously, there was something burning in there, something that you kind of saw or wanted to do, and I’d love to hear that kind of what was that kernel that made you take the step from really like, I guess, fast growing MGA to start your own company? 


Tetiana: There are a couple of factors. I personally see the world as divided between two people, the creators, and the consumers. And there’s no judgment. And some people don’t genuinely enjoy creating. Comes, as you know, Nigel, with a lot of risk and failure and disapproval. I love creating. I’ve learned from this deep and wide international experience. And then here in Australia, I’ve learned the guts of the business. And at some point, I was ready to go and experiment. I was ready to go and actually solve the problem. Because whilst I was building the Blue Zebra operation, I hit the limits of scale and what we’re capable of doing very quickly in all the industry, everyone, the moment there is a problem, they keep throwing people at the problem. But sometimes they don’t realize that people are the problem. The more people you add into the chain, the bigger the problem. Like for example, the inherent risk of human error, the inherent reporting, all kinds of oversight, QA, you name it. So, people are sometimes the problem. That factor and that realization led me to believe, well, there must be a better way. I’m sure there is a better way, and I’m surprised that I can’t find this better way ready off the shelf in the market. So that kind of realizing that gap, but also this inherent kind of drive to create. I was like, okay, well, there’s no better time than today. And I started Curium in 2020, while sitting in lockdown like everyone else, thinking that’s all my life. And I remember, if you remember the last crisis that we went through, the GFC, I’ve heard a phrase, I don’t remember by whom, one of the Silicon Valley tech guys. They said, never waste a good crisis. So, I was like, okay, I’ve got the time, let me do something about it. 


Nigel: It’s really interesting. I think you’re right as well. I’ve heard that phrase. And, that the biggest, most impactful companies in the world today have been created in the toughest environments. Whether that’s a global financial crisis or a COVID environment. Lots of different things like that have been created in super tough environments. And when you were thinking about that and you obviously got this enormous breadth of experience, in consulting across lots of GEOS, lots of businesses, et cetera, and then, like a much deeper experience within an MGA kind of when you what pieces of both of those experiences have you taken into startup life? Like, what are the things that you’ve gone to? Yeah, I’m pulling on these things daily, and they’ve been formational in helping you start to build and grow the business. 


Tetiana: One interesting experience that I had early in my career, a post GFC experience, it was cost cutting. It was the most dreadful thing I’ve ever done, and I’ve done it multiple times across multiple firms and multiple geographies, where large companies said, well, we can’t sustain our business model any longer and it’s either die or survive. So to survive, we’re just going to cut blank 20% of all cost. And of course, the cost is people. They hired expensive consultants to go around the world and cut people. I’ve done this multiple times, and I am a people person. So I saw them working and living, and then the other day their entire life changed because they lost their jobs whilst being in the middle of this. I never fired anyone myself, but I was the execution tool for the top management to run this. And I was always thinking later I realized it’s nothing new. Everyone goes through this. It’s a wave. You grow, you slim down, you grow, you slim down. I understand that. But what led me to thinking, well, do you really need to you don’t need to grow in the way that you, as I said, throw people at the problem but then don’t need them later. So, if you hire someone, make sure it’s the skill you need. And that is value generating and ideally translates into the top line. So, I have implemented this thought both in the way I build technology, but also in the way I pick people working with me that I don’t need to fire them because I don’t need them. And I’m not saying I’m perfect and never fired anyone, but it’s more this is the thought that I genuinely have all the time and I’m thinking also with my technology, I don’t want to displace or come and say, oh, you can cut 20% of your stuff with my tech. No, I’m saying you can use the tech to grow your top line because your people who are now focusing on something that’s not really revenue generating or value generated, they can be doing something else. I never come in and say cut your base by 50% or something. 


Nigel: Really add that like those folks are spending time on kind of truly value-added projects and work that increase revenue or kind of has another kind of positive impact on the business. What you just said was interesting, which was thinking about people and who’s going to be additive, and I know you got a co-founder, David, so I’m always interested to hear about the co-founder’s story, and how you find each other. Was it a speed dating experience or a long-history experience? I’m really interested in what it’s like but A) working with the co-founder and, B) kind of how you found each other. 


Tetiana: In a business like mine, which is technology and insurance, it’s clear that I am the insurance part of it and he’s the technology part of it. This is a clear equation. We complement each other perfectly in the skill set, which is what I believe co-founders must be. You shouldn’t replicate yourself or just do the same things. When I thought about Curium, I realized very quickly I need a co-founder. And I went all consulting about it. I project managed finding the right co-founder. I went through twelve people when I was looking for one. And I was very explicit what I want, what it’s going to be. And I was trying to inspire people to do something in the industry that is not deemed very sexy for technology people. As you know, it’s very hard to attract talent. I did find David through, funnily enough, the Antler network. I am sure you’ve heard about them. Yes. David’s motivation was always that he’s good at what he does. I think he’s a genius, but he always worked for other people and for other ideas. And it was time for him to try and build something scalable himself, not just on behalf of others. Something that would belong to him and be his own creation. And also when I presented him with the problem, I think the first we went through a very probably two or three months like long process of adjusting to each other and fleshing out the idea. I often saw his head starting to boil. When I was describing the claims process and how insurers work and all that, I could see him reaching the limits and him not believing that in the 21st century something can be as inefficient as this. Because he used to work on very cool stuff like blockchain NFDS and all that before. And he used to instant everything, as I said. It’s like a hat off for him to bearing with me on this, but also on creating this very sophisticated technology at the back with a very simple and intuitive user interface and experience. I think it is one of his biggest creations in that sense. 


Nigel: That’s amazing. And I’ve heard some good reports of the Antler experience. I think we’re seeing great companies emerge from that program. And from what I know and folks that are listening to this that haven’t heard of it, I think a program that kind of takes a bunch of folks that maybe had a more corporate background or kind of had a bunch of this is my understanding a big breadth of corporate experience but kind of want to break into a startup but are looking for a co-founder or someone to work with. And the kind of situation you described as the perfect scenario. Which is like a technical person looking for a problem to solve and a deep domain expert looking for its support. Great program. 


Tetiana: I think we didn’t do the program, so I didn’t do the program, but he did, and I found him because he did not find that person. 


Nigel: Perfect. 


Tetiana: But because he did the program, he signaled to the world that he wants to and that is how I found him. 


Nigel: That is a sign of a very smart entrepreneur there. Tetiana hacked around the corner and expounded about the person you wanted. I absolutely love it when you’re thinking of Curium’s purpose. Obviously, you just spoke about this kind of three-month process of being thoughtful around how you put it together. And purpose-driven organizations are so important to inspire people and get the right folks in the business, but also to have a greater good of solving a problem that you think is important. Spending your most valuable asset, which is time on. So, how would you describe Curium’s purpose and what you’re trying to achieve? 


Tetiana: Before I say this, I’ll explain where I’m coming from. Whilst many people think about insurance as the top three names on billboards and do lots of marketing, the guts of the industry, people who are delivering the service, most of them are small and medium companies. Even if you’ve got a big name, and I’m not going to name any but the big known names, they hire and use other people to do the jobs. The purpose of curium and being an MGA drove it home for me because MGA is a small and medium business. You can even be big. MGA is still a small business. In the $100 billion that’s insurance industry in Australia, having even 100 million still makes you small. What a very motivating factor is he is leveling up the playfield. If you look at the big companies, they often overcomplicate things and I sat too often on all kinds of committees and implementation projects of, like, multimillion dollar software. Six years. My worst one was six to €900 million. Implementation of a core system, I’m not joking, euros, 600 to €900 million. Whilst they sit there, which is extreme, 95% of others sit nowhere. They cannot afford anything. There’s nothing that serves them. Worst case, they do. Excel, spreadsheets, outlook, try to customize any kind of CRM or Zendesk or whatever you call it, any outside of industry solution to fit the purpose. And at some point, they realize, okay, I’m sitting on large amounts of regulatory risk, large inefficiencies, and I don’t even know what’s going on in my business. And there’s this disparity, right, and maybe some mid-sized companies that can afford some of the big tech. But I found no one serving 95% of the people or businesses that deliver the insurance service to me. I want to professionalize them, and I want to give them the ability to play at par with big guys at a fraction of the cost as I said. 


Nigel: Love it. And does your kind of passion sit behind that? Obviously, you’ve spoken a little bit about your past and your upbringing and your country of birth. Those are things that I suppose, the passion for the industry is obviously something I’m passionate about. And I know that most people that are in the industry are like, there’s experiences that kind of drive passion. Is that the passion for you or is it something different? 


Tetiana: It’s a combination of multiple things. It’s passion. I want small and medium businesses to succeed. I don’t want them to die because at some point they ran out of money. But also, to be honest, I’m loving and hating being the business owner myself because what really drives me, like, I wake up in the morning and I’m like, okay, why am I up? What’s going on? I love creating something and I really like going to places that other people have not been to before. I’m like, what crazy thing can I do today to test an idea to run something? As you know, in typical cases, 95% of everything fails, but then the other five, they’re actually great experiences that are worth living for. You’ve tried something and it solved the problem in a completely different way that you did not even think yourself was going to work. And then you’re like “Oh, that’s great, let me keep digging.” I’m very curious and I love taking risks and I’m kind of not very scared to expose myself to criticism. 


Nigel: Such a wonderful trait. And I’m sure there’ll be a bunch of folks listening to this who are females in the insurance industry that will be kind of, I suppose, inspired by you, and inspired by what you do every day. And I know that I believe that you’re a mum of two as well and starting to start up as a female in a male-dominated industry with a couple of kids. There’s a lot of things there that are real challenges but also kind of sets you apart in terms of kind of being an inspirational figure for a bunch of folks. And so, just really interested in how you find it hard. How is it being a female in insurance industry, a mum, and a startup founder? Talk to me. How do you do it? 


Tetiana: First, my daughter has now just turned five months. I haven’t slept in five months. It’s stressful. It’s stressful because I must juggle everything. And the best advice I got before my son, who is now three, was born, unfortunately, was throw cash at the problem. As a founder, you don’t have much, but whatever cash you have get external help. I’m fully relying on help. My husband this time took a paternity leave and took the hit of being the primary caregiver for a newborn for all this time. You can never do this alone. It’s very stressful, however, in my understanding of the world. And I’ve realized pretty quickly here in Australia that it’s different to it’s different in every country. But in my family history and again, upbringing in post-Soviet Union, I’m the fifth generation of university educated professional women. To me it was never a choice or anything. And my attitude in life is to do whatever you want. A child is not a choice or woman. It was never a factor. I’m equal. What’s the deal? So that’s the ongoing attitude. Now, what I’m getting back from the environment is not always what I would consider fair. And especially I found it really hard in two aspects. One is whilst people recognize I know my stuff in insurance, a lot of people doubt that I understand technology. Maybe because I’m female or maybe because I haven’t studied computer engineering. Again, it’s hard to say. So that’s one thing I think is a problem often. And the second one is, funnily enough, it’s fundraising. I found it really challenging. The kinds of comments I got or the kinds of questions I got; it blew my mind. To give you an example, I gave this example at a large conference when I was nine months pregnant for women. The question that I was asked after a pitch so there were 20 people. Three of them were called David and one of them was a woman. The question I got asked at the end, or it wasn’t asked to me directly, was asked after that saying, oh, it seemed like you were so when you are nervous, you stop and then laugh at the end. Like I do a little laugh. And that’s my typical reaction to being in stressful situations. And the comment was, “Well, I don’t believe Tetiana can make it as an entrepreneur because she needs to deal with senior stakeholders. And by having this, she’s not credible, she’s not serious.” I was like “Whoa, whoa!” My very first project at BCG was with a CEO of an Allianz subsidiary in a country when I was like 20 something. So, I am like, “Whoa, this is like if I were a man, would anyone ever have said something like that?  


Nigel: I think you’re bang on, I think, even if it’s like there’s just so much subconscious bias. And I think we’ve seen in Australia specifically and globally there’s this and a rise of some kind of venture backed, some venture specific VCs, etcetera. And I think that that’s a wonderful thing. But it is nascent, it’s small and your story is something that is so frequently heard, I think, which is that kind of that bias towards often kind of if you definitive or kind of say what you think is kind of termed as kind of bossy. But if a guy says it, it’s termed as kind of being a leader. Like there’s these unconscious things that you see continuously. It doesn’t surprise me, it obviously saddens me. Is there anything you think we can do as an industry to change it? Is there anything that you see that we can do individually that has an impact? 


Tetiana: An individual is the most powerful that you can be. When I’m looking, for example, for people to hire, for example freelance hiring right, for specific projects. And I think consciously I’m forcing myself not to go to the top star rated people who earned 100,000 by doing what they do. But maybe I can give someone a chance. And I would go through the list of applicants, I say “Okay, maybe this person would appreciate me putting my trust in her or sometimes him.” And always I’m looking at the backgrounds, country background, but also any kind of socioeconomic background because it’s my business. It’s essentially if everything goes wrong it’s on me. But I’m like that’s fine, why else would you do this? Attitude matters more than talent in the end. If I give someone a chance it might change their life. And not all my experiments were successful, just to give you a heads up. But I’m still doing it. Every time I do something I’m like I should just give this person a chance. Same thing. Actually. I have this philosophy around the startups in our ecosystem here and abroad. I’m providing good deals with no fee for services, like this for startups. Just because I think you have to give people a little push so that when they are successful, you’ll be successful with them. 


Nigel: I love it. It’s being proactive and deliberate about decision making. I think that rings true changing tech a bit. Obviously, you’re in the ninja tech, you’re changing the world and what you do? How do you think obviously there’s been some, I guess the first wave of insurer tech there’s a bunch of successes and some failures and kind of there’s like a second wave of growth in a few different areas. If you’ve got a view on and obviously you saw a bunch of insurers in your kind of BCG days, how are you seeing or what do you think has changed in the insurance sector with this kind of rise over the last kind of five or ten years of InsureTech? Is there anything that a few key things that you’ve taken away or noticed that have really changed and delivering for the future? 


Tetiana: Yes, I was doing a podcast a couple of months ago and the host chose one phrase of mine that says “InsureTechs are dead.” motto what I saw and just back on this 5-10 year journey behind us is a lot of people from non-insurance backgrounds. They’ve realized that inside of insurance there’s a lot of opportunity to create or to level up the playfield in terms of other industries like ecommerce and in the instant everything expectations. They realized that they came in and they were like, I’m going to change the world because I don’t know anything about insurance. But I’ll do that. And as you’ve mentioned, there are a lot of failures because I think people inherently do not understand the risk nature of an insurance business. And that’s why you see a lot of the bloated valuations that plummeted earlier last year even below the IPO values of the large American insurer tax. I think it’s still a bit of a wild, wild west and a lot of people are criticizing, saying insurer tech as a word has been misused because every new underwriting agency that comes out is calling themselves an insurance act because they use, I don’t know, Outlook. It’s not really an insurance because they don’t have paper anymore. I’m like that’s great. Does it really? I think there’s a lot of controversy in it. But where I’m hoping that it’s going and it clearly very much depends on the country, you’re in and the ecosystem, but at least I can tell for Australia, it’s going towards very high professional standards. People who start or run insurance, their level of expertise, not necessarily in insurance, but in adjacent areas like data, like geospatial imaging, machine learning or any kind of things that feed into the larger ecosystem, they are fantastic in terms of their levels of expertise. They really know what they’re doing. But then on the other hand, the insurance expertise is catching up. I believe nobody’s trying to run an insurance tech anymore without any actuary or something ridiculous like that. I hope where it’s going is it going towards more professionalization and kind of insurance people, traditional insurance people, catching up to the new tech and the techie and all the other creators, innovators, recognizing that they need to understand the basics so important. 


Nigel: I hope where it’s going is it going towards more professionalization and kind of insurance people, traditional insurance people, catching up to the new tech and the techie and all the other creators, innovators, recognizing that they need to understand the basics so important. It’s been around for a very long time and for good reason if you were to think about that on the folks on the other side. So obviously you have the kind of young companies who are trying to grow and do different things and make things more efficient, etcetera. But you’ve obviously got the incumbent, the traditional insurers that have been around a long time, they have some really solid businesses, very big, have big premium, etcetera. How do you think they’ve responded? What do you see? How have you seen them respond to dates and how they’re looking to respond over time? 


Tetiana: Funnily enough, companies, their single reason for existence is taking the risks as an industry. They’re very risk averse in the way they make decisions. And it’s not by no means apply to everyone, but over the many years that I’ve worked for them as the big insurers, they’re slow to ignorant or even not well wishing towards embracing the technology or the new things. And unfortunately, and I’ve said on that side of the table. I think way too many times I sawt hat if they embrace something it’s not necessarily for the true value of the innovation. It’s because someone well-connected and persuasive sold it to them. It’s not necessarily the actual thought about innovation. I think that’s one piece of how they respond to this. The other piece is many of them are getting very smart about it. And I believe for example Exa Worldwide is one of the good examples of running a venture kind of arm and running this constant innovation type of thing. A lot of people are catching up. There was a Zurich survey that just came our way recently that globally they’re starting to see how they can engage and so on and so forth. A lot of people are catching up. However, I still believe there’s this kind of I don’t know how to call this. It’s not ignorance. It’s more like let’s wait and see type of attitude. Let’s wait and see who survives. Or for example in my business people are like “Well you’re not New York Stock Exchange listed. I don’t know if you’re going to be around next year.” And I’m like valid, it’s a valid point. However, if you work with me, you’re increasing my chances of being around next year. It’s chicken and egg. It’s an interesting dynamic. Risk aversion is still the number one key problem and then not necessarily very smart buying of the technology. I can give you an example. I’m sure you’ve heard about Agile as a way of working not as a tech. Many companies have had bad experiences implementing Agile, terrible experiences. But because it was sold to them through some reputable name or company, they went with it and had terrible outcomes. I don’t think they’re saying this aloud, but if you ask the people who had to go through this, they swear about it like they hate it. 


Nigel: It is true. I think the Agile was one of those things that kind of year young companies were doing it. It was kind of then got taken up by some consulting houses and pushed down into some C-suite folks who made some decisions to make their business Agile but didn’t inherently have the core of the business. The operating folk’s kind of belief in it or the mindset to deliver it and then even though they pushed it down didn’t also want to be okay with the approach of small iterative change that could break and fail. And kind of trying to do it there was a want and desire to work like it but not really wanting to have the outcome of it. It’s interesting. It’d be interesting if you did a cross-sectional study on which corporates have returned to waterfall or some version of a waterfall approach versus an agile approach. After a few billion dollars spent on execution, it’ll be an interesting one, that’s for sure. 


Tetiana: High attrition rates of staff. 


Nigel: Yeah, I just want to spend a little bit of time on the future. Obviously here we try to understand a little bit around the future insurer. But before we go into that, I thought I’d love to understand the future for Curium. Maybe 2030, maybe 2050, whatever you want in terms of what the future vision for you look like, where would you love the company to be and what impact would you love it to have? 


Tetiana: When I started it, I was clear where I wanted to be. At some point I say it’s a phrase which people don’t always understand and might think it’s just something nice to say. But I do mean instant everything. And creating an experience like this is hard, as you know, because there are millions of small building blocks and mechanisms that must work together perfectly to create this experience. Both for the customer of an insurer but also for the ones who are delivering the work and the service for the insurer to create instant everything. And to be honest, I don’t know in which value chain parts Curium is going to play right now. We are playing in claims, payments, compliance, and different things. Asked about a lot of things like how about policy admin? Recently I’m asked all the time, how about ECG? Are you going to do something about ECG? I’m like, well, as a good entrepreneur, I see the opportunity. If you’re asking, then it might be of interest. I don’t have the vision of where it’s going to play, but I do have a vision of excellence in just automating and providing great service, great experience and also accuracy. Because as I said, a lot of the times when systems don’t work together perfectly or when people don’t work together perfectly, there’s a lot of inaccuracy and you get a lot of information lost or you don’t catch wrong behaviors on time, or many things can happen. I’m trying to provide this reliable stable base for the business to run and for people to do their jobs while relying on the data they see and the information that came. In or out of the decisions that the system made for them or the notifications that the system prompted them to do something right. I absolutely believe that it’s a must and it’s not even the future. I know it will take me time to get there, but in terms of expectation, the expectation is now. We are late in delivering this expectation. 


Nigel: Wonderful. I absolutely love it. And final question for me, it’s been such a wonderful exploratory conversation with a future insurer. For you what does the future insurer look like? 


Tetiana: It’s a great question. There’ll be a couple of waves that insurers, like everyone else, will go through. I think the very kind of near-term wave that everyone is going to go through now is mundane, but it’s called payments. The world is at the stage where payments must be instant, must be reliable, and accurate, not like bounce backs and all kinds of stories. And that’s number one, it must happen now. Insurers, they want, or they don’t want, they will have to go through this. The external pressure will force them. That’s the first thing. The second, I think, big thing is I personally feel because everyone is using technology, the talent that is providing and delivering that technology becomes rarity and it’s very expensive. What we saw through COVID is the typical outsourcing kind of arrangements that you go to a lower cost country and hire your talent there are not going to cut it much longer because everyone, every industry, every country is grabbing to the same pool of resources. And insurers being traditionally not very attractive places to work for this very out there and innovative talent right now, they pay crazy money. They pay Silicon Valley type of salaries for midlevel developers or UI, UX designers and so on. I feel large scale, all insurers, they are like It companies. They run all the full stack themselves and they make it their problem to run everything. I do feel that a big shift is going to be towards buying technology and as you mentioned in the beginning of the intro, as a Netflix type of thing. So, walk away from this. Let’s do five years of integration and $100 million of a price before the technology even starts working. Let’s move into this more mode. Let’s roll out a small piece, see how it works. Let’s roll out a bigger piece. Let’s sign up, subscribe, and reduce the capex, the capital expenditure, but run it through the Opex, the operational expenditure. So that’s number two. And number three, I believe the climate debate will be front and center for everyone. Insurers will not escape it. There’s no way, both as a purpose in what they do, but also as how they do. Because whilst they have this mask of being a financial service and regulated like one at the back, you have massive supply chains, physical supply chains, providing services and doing something for you. Insurers are in a good spot to drive the debate if they wanted to, and I feel they will have to. Again, no way around this. They’re across the full stack. 


Nigel: You’re absolutely right. Full stack from top to bottom. Late. This conversation has been so, so intriguing. Thank you so much for your authenticity, your honesty, your insight. It’s been absolutely wonderful. I’m sure everybody has really, really enjoyed it. Good luck with everything. I’ll be cheering from the sidelines for curium, and I hope you do well, let’s keep in touch and have a wonderful afternoon. 


Tetiana: Thank you, Nigel. It’s been a pleasure. 


Nigel: Well, I hope you enjoyed that episode. I certainly did. To watch the video, jump into the description. The links are there, taking you to our YouTube channel. And if you’d like to hear more from industry leaders who are really pushing the boundaries it of Insurers, make sure you check out our podcast series of building tomorrow’s Insurer. Finally, for more content, jump into LinkedIn into Twitter. Make sure you follow us. We’re always providing both podcast series, kind of mini versions of it, as well as kind of blog content that will be super useful to you, hopefully. Thank you. Have a wonderful day and look forward to seeing the next episode